A shoplifting charge in Ogdensburg can be stressful and confusing, especially if it is your first time in the New Jersey court system. You may be asked to appear in municipal court or, for higher-value allegations, in the county superior court. Early action can make a meaningful difference. The Law Office of Edward Appel helps residents and visitors understand charges, deadlines, and options while working to protect employment, education, and immigration interests. From contacting the court to preserving video, receipt, or witness evidence, we focus on clear steps that reduce uncertainty. If you received a summons or were arrested, reach out promptly to discuss your situation and a plan tailored to your goals.
New Jersey’s shoplifting law addresses a range of conduct, from alleged concealment to accusations of switching tags or under-ringing at self-checkout. Penalties can include fines, community service, restitution, and in some cases jail, along with long-term consequences for background checks. Depending on your history and the value at issue, opportunities may exist for diversion, downgrades, or dismissal. We address civil demand letters from retailers, negotiate with prosecutors, and identify weaknesses in the evidence such as unclear video or unreliable inventory records. Our goal is to guide you through Ogdensburg’s process with steady communication and practical advice, helping you understand each decision before court so you can move forward with confidence.
Having focused guidance during a shoplifting case helps you avoid avoidable missteps and pursue the best available outcome. We review the facts, assess proof issues, and seek resolutions that protect your record whenever possible. Early intervention can preserve surveillance footage, receipts, and witness information that are often lost. We also handle communications with stores and insurers, reducing the risk of statements that could be misunderstood. In Ogdensburg municipal court, knowing procedures and local practices helps us prepare you for what to expect. Whether your case involves low merchandise value or more serious allegations, our approach emphasizes negotiating fair results while preparing for litigation if necessary.
The Law Office of Edward Appel is a New Jersey Personal Injury, Criminal Defense, and DUI Law Firm that assists clients facing retail theft allegations in Ogdensburg and throughout Sussex County. We prioritize prompt communication, practical strategy, and respectful advocacy at every stage. You will understand your options and the expected timeline before decisions are made. Our team handles evidence collection, discovery, and negotiations while you receive guidance on court appearances and paperwork. We know cases involve more than fines or court dates—they can affect jobs, licenses, housing, and travel. Our mission is to safeguard your future through careful planning, negotiations, and, when needed, courtroom advocacy.
In New Jersey, shoplifting is governed by N.J.S.A. 2C:20-11 and covers conduct such as concealing merchandise, altering or transferring price tags, under-ringing, or removing a shopping cart from a store. The value of the merchandise typically determines whether the case is handled as a disorderly persons offense in municipal court or as an indictable offense in superior court. Prosecutors rely on store personnel, surveillance footage, and inventory records to prove intent and value. Even if you returned the item or paid later, the state may still proceed. Early legal guidance can help identify whether the evidence supports the charge or if negotiations, diversion, or dismissal strategies are feasible.
Beyond fines and potential jail, a shoplifting case can bring collateral effects. Employers and licensing boards may review charges during background checks, and stores can issue civil demand letters or trespass notices. For noncitizens, any theft-related allegation can raise immigration concerns. Many cases hinge on video clarity, loss prevention reports, receipt data, and whether store policies were followed. Our role includes seeking discovery promptly, evaluating chain-of-custody issues, and addressing any missing or contradictory evidence. We also help clients avoid unhelpful statements, respond appropriately to retailer communications, and take steps that demonstrate responsibility when it meaningfully improves the path toward a favorable resolution.
Under N.J.S.A. 2C:20-11, shoplifting includes knowingly taking merchandise with the purpose to deprive a merchant of its value. This includes concealing items on or near the body, altering or transferring price tags to pay less, under-ringing at checkout, or removing a shopping cart from the premises. Intent can be inferred from actions like concealment, but that presumption can be challenged with context and evidence. The value attributed to the item typically drives grading and penalties. Cases may also involve alleged accomplices, store bans, and requests for restitution. Understanding each element—intent, value, ownership, and proof—is essential to evaluating defenses and negotiation opportunities.
A shoplifting case generally begins with a summons or arrest and an initial court date. The state must prove intent and value beyond a reasonable doubt using evidence like surveillance footage, witness statements, and inventory records. Early steps include requesting discovery, preserving helpful video, and clarifying the alleged value. Strategy may involve challenging the accuracy of loss prevention reports, questioning identification, or addressing under-ringing technology issues. Many cases are resolved through negotiations, diversion, or downgrades. Others require motions or trial. Throughout, we prepare you for appearances, advise on restitution or community service when helpful, and work toward outcomes that limit long-term impacts on employment and background checks.
Understanding common terms can lower stress and improve decision-making. “Discovery” refers to the evidence the prosecutor must share, such as video, reports, and statements. “Diversion” programs like Conditional Dismissal or Pretrial Intervention may allow certain defendants to avoid a conviction if they complete conditions. “Downgrade” means reducing the severity of the charge, often based on value disputes or mitigation. “Restitution” covers paying the merchant for losses when appropriate. Familiarity with these concepts helps you speak confidently about your case, weigh options, and participate in strategy decisions that align with your goals and circumstances.
This New Jersey statute defines shoplifting and outlines the behaviors that can lead to charges, including concealment, price tag alteration, under-ringing at checkout, and removing shopping carts. The law sets grading based on merchandise value, influencing whether a case proceeds in municipal or superior court. It also provides for presumptions and evidentiary rules, such as inferences from concealment, that can be challenged through context and proof. Understanding how prosecutors attempt to meet each element under this statute—intent, value, ownership, and conduct—helps shape defenses, negotiations, and motions. It is the starting point for analyzing exposure, potential penalties, and opportunities for alternatives.
Conditional Dismissal is a municipal court program for certain first-time defendants charged with eligible disorderly persons offenses, which can include some shoplifting cases. If accepted, you comply with conditions such as staying arrest-free, paying fees, and possibly completing community service. Successful completion can result in the charge being dismissed, reducing long-term record harm. Not everyone qualifies, and prosecutors and judges evaluate eligibility and circumstances. Even if eligible, the program may or may not be the best strategic choice, especially if the evidence is weak. We help you compare options, weigh timing, and understand how program participation may affect expungement opportunities.
In New Jersey, lower-value shoplifting cases are typically charged as disorderly persons offenses and handled in municipal court. Higher-value allegations may be indictable offenses, moving the case to superior court. The difference affects potential penalties, procedures, and timelines. For indictable cases, the matter may pass through a grand jury and involve additional discovery and motion practice. Understanding where your case falls helps set expectations about appearances, resolution options, and collateral consequences. We review value calculations, receipts, and inventory records to confirm grading and challenge assumptions where appropriate, with the goal of pursuing reductions, downgrades, or other favorable paths.
After a retail incident, a third-party law firm or the store may mail a civil demand letter seeking payment separate from the criminal case. While New Jersey law allows merchants to pursue civil remedies, these letters are not the same as criminal fines or restitution ordered by a court. Responding without guidance can create confusion or admissions. We review the letter, explain your options, and coordinate any response with the strategy in your criminal matter. Sometimes the best approach is limited communication; other times, resolving the civil request can support negotiations. Each situation is fact-specific and requires careful evaluation.
Depending on the facts, you may consider negotiations for a plea to a lesser offense, entry into a diversion program, or a contested approach that targets proof issues. Some cases benefit from restitution or community service, while others call for firm litigation because the evidence is thin or value is overstated. We help you weigh short-term convenience against long-term record protection, considering immigration, employment, and licensing concerns. The best option is tailored to your goals, the strength of the evidence, your history, and local practices. Our role is to explain the pros and cons of each path so you can make an informed choice.
If you have no prior record and the alleged merchandise value is low, a targeted strategy may be appropriate. This can involve quickly gathering receipts, witness statements, or proof of a misunderstanding, then opening a constructive dialogue with the prosecutor. In some cases, restitution or brief community service can support a fair resolution that avoids a damaging outcome. We ensure your presentation emphasizes context such as confusion at self-checkout, medical issues, or genuine mistake. Even a limited approach should be structured, with careful attention to court deadlines, preservation of video, and avoiding statements that could be misconstrued later.
Some cases feature inconsistent store reports, unclear video, or gaps in the chain of custody for alleged evidence. When identification is uncertain or value cannot be verified, a measured response may focus on highlighting those weaknesses early. We request discovery promptly, compare incident reports, and test the reliability of inventory records. A concise defense can sometimes lead to downgrades or dismissals without extensive litigation. Even so, we stay prepared to escalate if needed, filing motions to suppress unreliable evidence or to compel discovery. The point is to match effort and resources to the facts, maximizing results while minimizing disruption to your life.
When a shoplifting allegation could affect immigration status, a professional license, or a security clearance, a comprehensive plan is often essential. We coordinate strategy with these stakes in mind, prioritizing outcomes that avoid disqualifying records. This can include more robust investigation, aggressive value challenges, and a focus on resolutions that minimize adverse findings. We also review collateral reporting obligations and help you prepare accurate, careful disclosures where necessary. A forward-looking approach considers expungement timelines and documentation you may need for future applications. The objective is to protect both the case result and the broader opportunities that matter to your life and career.
If you have prior contacts with the system, the alleged value is elevated, or the facts involve multiple people or locations, the stakes increase. We often recommend a comprehensive approach: securing all video angles, interviewing witnesses, retaining relevant records, and pursuing motions that target identification or intent. Complex cases may also involve conspiracy allegations, tagging patterns, or technology-driven under-rings that require technical analysis. A fuller strategy gives room to challenge grading, explore downgrades, and prepare for trial if negotiations stall. Through each stage, we keep you informed, align tactics with your goals, and work to limit long-term consequences.
A thorough plan helps control the narrative by quickly gathering helpful evidence, identifying proof gaps, and setting the case up for dismissal, downgrade, or diversion where appropriate. It ensures deadlines are met and that discovery is complete before important decisions are made. Comprehensive preparation also strengthens negotiation leverage and avoids surprises that can occur at the last minute. With a clear strategy, you can weigh options calmly and choose a path that protects your record, employment, housing, and education interests. The result is a more organized, predictable process focused on the best attainable outcome for your circumstances.
Beyond the immediate resolution, a comprehensive approach considers long-term planning. We look ahead to expungement eligibility, potential sealing options, and documentation you may need for future background checks. Thoughtful timing—such as when to pursue diversion versus litigation—can make a meaningful difference in results. We coordinate responses to civil demand letters and store communications so your criminal strategy remains consistent. By anticipating issues, we reduce risk and help you avoid decisions that may seem convenient now but have lasting negative effects. This careful, proactive posture is designed to help you move forward with confidence and stability.
Even a minor shoplifting case can ripple through job applications, professional licenses, or school placements. A structured defense focuses on outcomes that limit or avoid damaging entries on your record whenever possible. We emphasize weaknesses in proof, seek downgrades, and pursue diversion where it aligns with your goals. When appropriate, we also advise on timing for expungement to reduce long-term exposure. Our guidance extends to how you should discuss the case with employers or schools, helping you avoid statements that could be misinterpreted. By planning for the future, we protect more than a court result—we protect your opportunities.
New Jersey courts offer several pathways that may reduce the impact of a shoplifting charge, including diversion in municipal court and, in indictable cases, Pretrial Intervention. Eligibility depends on your history and the facts. With careful preparation, we highlight mitigation, address restitution, and present a persuasive narrative that supports alternatives to conviction. Where diversion is not practical, we seek downgrades or focus on proof issues that can lead to dismissal. Throughout, we explain the benefits and trade-offs of each option so you can select a strategy that balances immediate relief with long-term protection.
Surveillance video and receipt data can be overwritten quickly. As soon as possible, write down what happened, identify witnesses, and save any texts, emails, or bank records that support your account. Do not contact store staff directly about the incident without guidance; let counsel coordinate requests that protect your rights. In some cases, a preservation letter can help ensure critical footage remains available. Small steps taken early—like safeguarding your purchase history and photos of items—often shape negotiations and court discussions later, and may open doors to diversion, downgrades, or dismissal depending on the circumstances.
Civil demand letters are separate from the criminal case and can be confusing. Do not make payments or admissions without understanding how it may affect your defense. Sometimes limited or no response is wise; in other situations, a coordinated resolution supports negotiations with the prosecutor. Share the letter with your lawyer promptly so the approach aligns with your overall strategy. We evaluate the request, your goals, and court posture before recommending next steps. A measured, coordinated response helps protect you from unintended consequences and keeps the focus on achieving the best possible outcome in court.
A local defense lawyer helps you understand Ogdensburg court procedures, deadlines, and expectations, which can reduce stress and avoid missed opportunities. We evaluate evidence, identify weaknesses, and negotiate for outcomes that protect your record whenever possible. For first-time allegations, we assess eligibility for diversion and alternatives to conviction. For more serious charges, we prepare motions and trial strategies that challenge identification, value, or intent. We also coordinate responses to civil demand letters and store communications so you do not inadvertently harm your criminal case. The goal is steady guidance and practical solutions at every step.
Beyond the courtroom, a shoplifting case can affect work, school, licenses, and immigration. We help you plan around those risks and make choices that serve your long-term interests. You will receive candid guidance about likely outcomes, timelines, and costs, so you can make informed decisions. Whether your priority is speed, privacy, or record protection, we tailor the approach accordingly. We also advise on expungement and provide documentation that may be helpful for employers or boards. With a clear plan and steady communication, you can face the process with confidence and aim for a productive resolution.
Shoplifting allegations often stem from misunderstandings at self-checkout, confusing return policies, or hurried decisions during busy shopping trips. Stores may rely on loss prevention reports and surveillance video that do not show the full context. Value disputes frequently arise when sales, coupons, or bundle pricing are involved. Sometimes a friend or family member’s conduct is attributed to the wrong person, or a receipt fails to scan properly. Each scenario is fact-specific, and small details can change the trajectory of the case. We focus on correcting the record, gathering proof that helps, and presenting your story in a clear, persuasive way.
Self-checkout lanes increase speed but can also generate errors, especially with multi-item purchases, unscannable barcodes, or unexpected weight prompts. A rushed transaction may be interpreted as under-ringing or concealment. Return policies and electronic receipts add complexity, and innocent mistakes are sometimes misread as intent. We investigate whether system logs, camera angles, and purchase histories support your explanation. When appropriate, we present mitigation—such as immediate correction attempts or cooperation—to pursue fair resolutions. Clear documentation and early requests for video preservation can make a meaningful difference in how the case is charged and negotiated.
Concealment and tag-switching allegations often rely on partial video, distant camera angles, or assumptions by store personnel. We review whether the footage actually shows the item, the tag, and the person’s actions with clarity. Inventory and price records may contain errors, and handling an item briefly does not necessarily show intent to steal. We test the store’s timeline, witness vantage points, and the continuity of evidence. Where the facts support it, we argue for downgrades or dismissals; otherwise, we seek resolutions that protect your record and limit long-term consequences on employment or licensing.
Grading and penalties often turn on merchandise value, so errors can materially change a case. Sale pricing, bundle deals, coupons, or clearance tags may not be reflected in the store’s initial calculations. We obtain receipts, point-of-sale records, and inventory reports to verify value and challenge overstatements. If value drops below a threshold, we seek downgrades or alternative resolutions. Where a dispute remains, we prepare to litigate the issue through discovery and, if needed, expert retail documentation. Getting value right supports fair negotiations and puts you in the best position to achieve a favorable outcome.
We focus on practical results and clear communication. From the first call, you will understand your court dates, options, and next steps. We analyze video, receipts, and reports to test the state’s case and identify opportunities for dismissal, downgrade, or diversion. You will receive candid guidance that reflects your priorities—whether that is resolving the case quickly, protecting your record, or preparing to contest the allegations. Our approach is steady, respectful, and built around your goals.
Local knowledge matters. We guide clients through Ogdensburg municipal procedures and, when necessary, Sussex County Superior Court. We work with prosecutors to present mitigation and resolve misunderstandings while staying ready to file motions or proceed to trial if negotiations do not align with your interests. We also address civil demand letters and store communications in a way that supports your criminal defense strategy, minimizing the chance of unintended consequences.
Your case affects more than a single court date. We consider employment, licensing, education, and immigration concerns from the start, pursuing outcomes that support your long-term plans. We discuss expungement timing and provide documentation to help with future background checks. Our goal is to reduce uncertainty and deliver a structured path forward, with attentive service and practical advice at every stage of the process.
We begin with a thorough review of the incident and your goals, then build a plan that fits your timeline and priorities. Early steps include requesting discovery, preserving helpful video, and identifying value disputes. We prepare you for court, handle filings, and communicate with the prosecutor about diversion or downgrades where appropriate. If negotiations stall, we file motions and prepare for hearings or trial. Throughout, you receive clear updates, practical guidance, and support addressing civil demands. Our process is designed to move efficiently while protecting your rights and long-term interests.
We gather the facts, review your summons, and map out key dates so nothing is missed. You will receive an overview of municipal or superior court procedures and what to expect at each appearance. We identify immediate needs such as preserving surveillance video, collecting receipts, and documenting witnesses. Early clarity helps reduce stress and positions your case for the best available outcome. We set communication preferences, discuss your goals, and begin crafting a strategy that fits your life, work schedule, and priorities.
During our first meeting, we discuss what happened, your background, and any documents you received. We clarify the alleged conduct, value, and court location, and gather details that may not appear in reports. If you have medical issues, receipts, or messages that explain events, we collect them now. We then provide an initial roadmap, including likely options and timelines. This sets expectations and identifies which evidence to request immediately.
We notify the court of representation, request discovery, and open a professional dialogue with the prosecutor. When appropriate, we preview mitigation or value disputes to frame negotiations constructively. We also coordinate with you on any restitution, community service, or evaluations that may improve the resolution. Early communication can help preserve opportunities while ensuring your rights are protected and deadlines are met.
Once discovery arrives, we analyze surveillance footage, loss prevention reports, and value records. We assess identification, intent, and whether store policies were followed. You will receive a clear explanation of the strengths and weaknesses of the case and the options available, including diversion or litigation. With your input, we select a strategy and pursue negotiations that align with your goals, while preparing motions or trial materials as needed.
We scrutinize every piece of evidence: whether video shows the item clearly, whether reports are consistent, and how value was calculated. We explore defenses such as lack of intent, misidentification, and inventory errors. Where helpful, we gather additional documentation or witness statements to support your account. This detailed review shapes negotiations and informs any motions we file.
We present mitigation and advocate for alternatives, including Conditional Dismissal in municipal court or Pretrial Intervention in indictable matters where eligible. If diversion is not appropriate, we seek downgrades or favorable plea terms that protect your record. Throughout negotiations, we keep you informed and involved so decisions reflect your priorities and comfort level.
If negotiations do not produce a satisfactory result, we file targeted motions challenging identification, intent, or value, or to compel any missing discovery. We prepare you for hearings, discuss plea options honestly, and, when necessary, proceed to trial. At each stage, we revisit your goals, the evidence, and potential outcomes so you can choose the path that best serves your future. We also plan for expungement or record relief where available.
We draft motions grounded in the facts and law, supported by exhibits from discovery. Hearings give us an opportunity to test the state’s case, address evidentiary issues, and refine strategy. You will know what to expect, how to prepare, and how each outcome affects the next decision point. This preparation helps reduce surprises and keeps the case moving toward a productive resolution.
When the case resolves—through dismissal, downgrade, diversion, plea, or trial—we pivot to protecting your future. We advise on compliance steps, court paperwork, and documentation for employers or boards. We also discuss expungement timelines and plan next actions to reduce long-term impact. Our aim is to help you close this chapter with clarity and confidence.
After a summons or arrest, you will receive a date for court, typically in Ogdensburg municipal court unless the alleged value elevates the case to superior court. Early steps include requesting discovery, preserving video, and reviewing reports from loss prevention and police. You should avoid making statements to store representatives or insurers without guidance, as they can be misinterpreted. A focused plan can help you understand your options, including diversion, negotiations, or contested hearings. At your first appearance, the judge will explain the charges and confirm whether you have counsel. We work to address scheduling concerns, obtain missing discovery, and open constructive discussions with the prosecutor. Depending on the evidence and your goals, we may pursue downgrades, diversions, or dismissals, or prepare for motions and trial. Throughout, we explain each step and help you make informed decisions.
Jail is not mandatory for many first-time shoplifting allegations in New Jersey, especially at lower values. Outcomes vary, and courts consider the facts, your history, mitigation, and the strength of the evidence. In municipal court cases, diversion programs or negotiated resolutions may be available, depending on eligibility and circumstances. Early preparation, restitution where appropriate, and a clear presentation of your background can improve the conversation. That said, every case is unique, and higher alleged values or aggravating factors may increase exposure. Our approach starts with an assessment of the statute, grading, and proof issues, then explores alternatives that protect your record whenever possible. We explain realistic ranges of outcomes so you know what to expect and can choose the strategy that aligns with your priorities, whether that is speed, record protection, or contesting the allegations.
Yes, dismissals or downgrades are possible in the right circumstances. Common paths include demonstrating weak identification, challenging value calculations, highlighting gaps in video or inventory records, or presenting mitigation such as restitution and community service. For eligible first-time defendants in municipal court, the Conditional Dismissal Program may offer a way to avoid a conviction after successful compliance. Not every case fits the same path, and sometimes litigation is the best option. We evaluate all discovery and pursue motions where appropriate. If negotiations are appropriate, we frame discussions around the evidence and your goals, aiming for outcomes that minimize long-term consequences. You will receive clear guidance about risks, benefits, and timelines before making decisions.
The Conditional Dismissal Program is a municipal court option for certain first-time defendants charged with eligible disorderly persons offenses. If accepted, you complete conditions such as staying arrest-free, paying fees, and possibly community service. Successful completion often results in dismissal, which can limit long-term record harm compared to a conviction. Eligibility is not automatic, and it may not be the best choice in every case—particularly if the evidence is weak or if another resolution would better protect your interests. We assess your history, the facts, and collateral concerns before recommending this option. If it makes sense, we help you apply and complete conditions. We also discuss expungement timing and documentation you may need after dismissal.
Whether you must appear depends on the court’s rules, the judge’s preferences, and the stage of the case. In many municipal matters, your appearance is required, especially at key hearings and resolution dates. Your lawyer can sometimes handle status conferences or scheduling issues, but you should not assume an appearance is waived unless the court agrees. We coordinate with the court and prosecutor to clarify expectations and minimize the impact on your schedule. Before each date, we explain the purpose, what may happen, and how to prepare. If personal circumstances complicate attendance, we can request accommodations when appropriate. The goal is to keep your case moving while ensuring you are informed and ready for each appearance.
Merchandise value typically determines whether a case is charged as a disorderly persons offense in municipal court or as an indictable offense in superior court. Value also influences possible penalties and negotiation dynamics. Errors can occur with sale prices, coupons, or clearance items, and verifying value is a vital step in our review. We obtain receipts, point-of-sale records, and inventory documents to confirm accuracy. If value is overstated, we push for downgrades or other relief. Where disputes remain, we may litigate the issue through motions or hearings. Getting value right can open the door to diversion, reduced charges, or more favorable plea terms.
Civil demand letters are separate from the criminal case and often request payment to the retailer or a third-party firm. Do not pay or respond without understanding how it may affect your defense. In some matters, a limited or carefully worded response is best; in others, no response is appropriate. We review the letter within the context of your criminal strategy before advising next steps. Coordinating your approach can prevent accidental admissions and preserve negotiation leverage. If resolution is useful, we discuss timing, proof of payment, and how to present it productively to the prosecutor. Our goal is to ensure any civil step supports—not undermines—your overall defense plan.
A shoplifting case can affect employment, professional licensing, housing, and immigration. Background checks may reveal charges, not just convictions, which is why early planning matters. We pursue resolutions that limit record impact where possible and advise on how to discuss the matter with employers or boards in a careful, truthful way. For noncitizens, theft-related allegations can raise significant concerns. We coordinate with immigration counsel when appropriate and prioritize outcomes that minimize risk. We also advise on expungement and documentation that may help with future applications. Protecting your long-term opportunities is a central part of our strategy from day one.
Retailers can express preferences, but the prosecutor represents the State of New Jersey and ultimately decides whether to proceed. Even if a store indicates it does not wish to pursue, the case may continue. Conversely, civil payments do not automatically end criminal charges. That said, cooperation, restitution, or clarification of facts can influence outcomes in negotiations. We communicate with the prosecutor, present mitigation, and highlight any weaknesses in proof. If evidence is insufficient, we move for dismissal. If negotiations are appropriate, we pursue fair terms that protect your record whenever possible. Our approach is to address both the legal and practical aspects that drive charging decisions.
Costs vary based on the complexity of the case, the court involved, and whether motions or trial are likely. After an initial consultation, we provide a transparent fee structure and outline what services are included. You will understand expected expenses before committing, and we discuss payment options that fit your circumstances. While price matters, the right fit also includes communication style, strategy, and availability. We stay accessible, provide regular updates, and align the defense plan with your goals. Our aim is to deliver clear value through thorough preparation, thoughtful negotiations, and steady advocacy from start to finish.